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Wednesday 11 January 2012

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Immunisation: Should parents choose?

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Parents have been urged to immunise their children despite calls from groups such as the Australian Vaccination Network who say parents should have the right to choose.

Queensland's Chief Health Officer, Dr Jeannette Young, said Queensland Health remained "absolutely committed" to delivering its immunisation program to as many Queenslanders as possible.

"In the past year hundreds of thousands of Queenslanders have been protected against deadly diseases such as whooping cough, cervical cancer, diphtheria and measles, as well as influenza." she said.

"The benefits of vaccination are obvious. Between 1930 and 1988, around 40,000 Australians developed paralytic Polio. Now Australia is Polio free.

"This program saves lives, and we will continue to urge Queenslanders to vaccinate their children against life-threatening illnesses," Dr Young said.

"Queensland's vaccination program is extremely safe and is the most effective way to prevent illness and death from vaccine preventable diseases," she said.

State Member for Cook Jason O'Brien concurred and said groups like "the misleadingly named" Australian Vaccination Network " are wrong to discourage people from getting vaccinated."

"The fact is vaccinations have saved millions of lives. Their invention was a miracle of scientific achievement" he said.

According to the Australian Vaccination Network's website "We believe it is a parent's right to choose what's best for their child...some would say that this is one of the most basic rules of any civilised society. Yet governments all over the world have abridged or denied the right to free choice when it comes to vaccinations, vaccines and immunisations." 

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The Newsport Editor , 16-01-12 10:07:
Comments on this article are now closed. We appreciate your passionate and often informative discussion and hope you'll continue to follow The Newsport either via the website or through our facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Newsport-Daily/80551860770.
Nadia , 15-01-12 22:12:
Rebekah Jones wrote:
“I always find it interesting that the anti-vaxxers have no scientific or medical qualifications and offer no actual evidence for their views beyond some vague anecdotes. Talk to your GP and ask for the facts, the real facts.”
Robyn, I am a qualified NURSE. Where is your evidence that “anti-vaxxers” have no medical qualifications? I based most of my information from www.gsk.com.au and other vaccine manufacturer’s websites where I read each individual product insert and was horrified at the risks. I myself had a STROKE at only a few months old IMMEDIATELY after receiving a vaccine and the doctor REFUSED to report it. How could I trust a GP’s opinion on this subject?
Scott wrote:
“Nadia, this is science not art. There is no room for people's individual opinion. On one side there is scientifically proven fact and on the other is speculation and superstition”
Scott,
ALL science is based on opinion. Scientists look at findings and form an OPINION based on them. If you need evidence of this, look at Einstein’s theory of relativity. This is classed as scientific fact. However, recently this has been put into doubt. Have you never noticed that most scientific ‘facts’ are only ever labelled theories?
Kellie , 14-01-12 15:19:
The title of this editorial reads "Immunisation, should parents choose?"
there can only be one answer to this question; Yes, parents must continue to have the final decision in the wellbeing of their offspring; the only other option left in the above mentioned title would be enforced immunisations! Who decides which immunisations are optional and which are to be compulsory? There is an ever growing theory that our planet is over populated; if we conceed to enforced immunisations whose to say that we are not giving our rights away to procreate by choice. How are we to know what ingredients are included in the vaccinations if we are not trained in medical science research? how would you recognise any scientific name for a drug? would you read the consent form and abdicate the responsibility to the nurse or doctor giving you the drug assuming they knew exactly what was contained in the vial; which of course they dont. what are the long term effects of drugs? In my opionion, there are too many factors left in the unanswered box to abicate this decision makeing role of a parent.
Luke , 13-01-12 22:31:
There is loads of info out there if you care to look.. ignore or downplay this one - http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=79D460D1487458588C3A8C221F6F1530
There are many medical professionals that are not pro Vax- http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/about/ And more... Vaccine Nation, well worth a watch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TdSp3hyuHk
Luke , 13-01-12 21:38:
I find these attacks on anti vax comments to be bordering on paranoia. If you and your kids are vaccinated then you are safe, are you not? Leave the people alone that take responsibility for their own health, let us make the choice. How did we as a race get here without vaccines, one might ask. Well, we in the past were much stronger and robust before any vaccine was even thought of. I walked away from modern medicine over a decade ago because I was told I would never again be healthy... that I would have to be on medication for the rest of my life. Pffft.. 8 mnths later I was able to do physical work again unmedicated. I took responsibility for my own health. Medication is keeping people unwell. Side effects are direct effects of the toxic pharmaceuticals. There are some people out there that do document their work very well and yet we still ignore these truths. Before vaccines and big Pharma, we relied on nutrition and it was far superior than any medication. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html
The Newsport Editor , 13-01-12 15:13:
Hello again

Just a reminder for those wanting to comment to remain respectful to differing points of view. There is a lot of healthy discussion here so let's not ruin it with personal barbs. We reserve the right to decline or edit comments that we deem inappropriate.

Editor
Christine Walker, 13-01-12 15:03:
I can't understand why parents cry foul and complain that their doctor 'refuses' to report suspected side effects of vaccines, therefore assuming that the risk data is false. Why then, if they feel so strongly about it, don't they report it themselves? If anyone wants to report an adverse reaction all the info is here http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/184_04_200206/woo10013_fm.html
Dr Ben , 13-01-12 14:30:
Vaccines are evil, the rise in vaccinations has coincided with the rise in global warming. Vaccines have therefore caused global warming.... It's so easy to make stuff up sometimes like the anti vax crowd do all the time.
Rebekah Jones, 13-01-12 13:49:
I always find it interesting that the anti-vaxxers have no scientific or medical qualifications and offer no actual evidence for their views beyond some vague anecdotes. Talk to your GP and ask for the facts, the real facts.
Gary K, 13-01-12 11:47:
As long as there are anti-vaxx cultist groups out there like the AVN spreading their lies and misinformation and being given an equal platform in the media to provide "balance", I fear the general public will be unable to make properly informed decisions on this issue. These groups are very skilled at aiming their emotional propaganda, conspiracy theories and pseudoscience at the vulnerable. Their track record speaks for itself. Even their name is misleading - be highly skeptical of these menaces to public health.
Scott , 13-01-12 11:25:
Leigh Campbell, Dr Tanzi has indeed done some impressive work, not the least his description of two of the genes involved in Alzheimer's. I think you misrepresent his work though - his theory involves copper and zinc neither of which are in vaccines.

And Huntington's diease is of autosomal dominant inheritance. You CANNOT catch it from a vaccine or anything else for that matter.
Jason Brown, 13-01-12 11:15:
Leigh Wrote: "Scott, our decision not to immunise our 3 kids was mainly based on wanting to avoid metals being injected into their blood streams"

The majority of vaccines are delivered as intramuscular injections, not intravenous. You're not injecting *anything* into anyone's bloodstream.

This is a common trope among antivaxers and it's WRONG.
Scott , 13-01-12 11:06:
Robyn, I'm sorry to have caused you offense. We can at least agree on two things: 1) The decision to vaccinate is the parents and the parents alone; 2) The parents has the right to have support in that decision. The AVN on the other hand, does not have the right to willfully spread misinformation that endangers the lives of vulnerable people (see the HCCC ruling).

Luke, unlike you I do not believe anecdotes are evidence. But while dealing with anecdotes I'll give you some of my own. Why am I so emotional about this? Because I have seen children die from vaccine preventable diseases. I have seen many more go near death or suffer great morbidity from vaccine preventable diseases. None of them were immunised for the disease they were afflicted with them. I have seen their parents blame themselves for not having had the vaccine. They should not blame themselves. It wasn't their fault - it was the fault of organisations like the AVN.

Stop the AVN.
Luke Murray, 12-01-12 21:55:
The issue is not black and white... http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/sick-monkeys-st.html
Luke Murray, 12-01-12 21:47:
Scott, I find your disrespect for others interesting. Why are you so emotionally charged on this issue? I have had direct experience living with people who have had extreme reactions to vaccinations. My previous partner was diagnosed with MS after receiving the Rubella injection. Her health deteriorated after the injection and it took two years of constant tests before she received the heavy label of Multiple Sclerosis. I have met other females who magically developed MS after Rubella. I also watched a happy healthy teenage girl go from being full of energy to being bedridden for 2+wks then eventually be told she has chronic fatigue after the Gardasil vaccine. It is important to question any information no matter the source. Medical practitioners are not beyond reproach. Please take the time to watch the Burzynski film as it is clear in it's message... no conspiracy theory, just anecdotal evidence of medical misinformation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBUGVkmmwbk
Lee Keegan, 12-01-12 20:52:
All you pro-vaccination people need to take a good look at what you are actually spouting. About 12 years ago I was just an average person, I hadn't really thought that much about vaccination, that all changed when I had a friend of mine give birth to a beautiful, bright, intelligent 'normal' little boy. All this within an hour of him receiving his first round of vaccinations. He became febrile, convulsive, was taken to hospital, and when he finally came around he was listless, and had this 'starey eyed look' , almost as if he just wasn't there anymore. He became an absolute nightmare to take anywhere, he screamed and whined, banged his head incessantly, whenever he became the slightest bit anxious. Most that he had learned, colours, animals etc. was lost overnight. My friend went from being this proud beautiful mother enjoying her son's 'firsts' to a shadow of herself, she lost weight, her relationship suffered, she left her job, and her son became her only concern. It was so hard to see, and she told me that there was no question in her mind that the vaccination caused the change in her son. Even though she took her son back to the GP who administered the vaccination, he refused to acknowledge any link between the vaccination and her son's condition, stating that "it was just one of those things". "He is at that age when Autism tends to show up". And he refused to report any vaccination side-effect. So here I am 12 years later, and I continue to keep up to date with the vaccination issue, and from what I can tell, there is still this tendency for doctors to dismiss obvious vaccine side-efects, and so with all these going unreported, I know that the safety records must be totally inaccurate. I am now the mother of two beautiful and healthy non-vaccinated children, and no, I am not purely 'lucky', I am informed. I treat them with homeopathy which works. I treat them with herbal medicine which works. So I can only urge those of you who are unsure, or who have been told that vaccination is the best thing for your children, please research, question, and then truly decide for yourself, because this issue is definitely not black and white.
Robyn , 12-01-12 20:05:
To Scott. I find your comments exceptionally rude. What makes you think you are in a position to judge that 'I did not make' an informed decision. For your information my decision was not made lightly and it was made with extensive research into BOTH medical and anti - vac information. I am an educated person not some brainless puppet who does not have the intelligence to think for myself. You stated that your family are all healthy. Well, I for one am very glad about that. But some of us live with extensive disability in our homes. As the parent of 2 special needs children I am sick to death that in every area we have to fight to get the help our children need. I find it highly offensive and an added burden to our already stressful lives that we are penalized because we choose not to immunize!! The paper work, defending our position to medical staff, and being made to feel stupid by people who think they have all the answers. The question is should we have a right to choose. The answer from my perspective is YES. Should we be entitled to have organizations who support our decision be it AVN or anyone else. YES! We are entitled to that too if we choose to make use of the information available. I have never, ever given money or paid anything to any organization for information but if I chose to then that would be my business. So please, allow those who wish to comment on this thread the freedom to do so.
Scott , 12-01-12 18:07:
Nadia, this is science not art. There is no room for people's individual opinion. On one side there is scientifically proven fact and on the other is speculation and superstition.

Leigh the reason the chances of your family catching diptheria are remote is because you are protected by an immunised community. You are right in saying that your children are more likely (in Australia) to have autism, just not from the vaccine (that theory has been disproven time and time again).
Leigh Campbell, 12-01-12 17:50:
Scott, our decision not to immunise our 3 kids was mainly based on wanting to avoid metals being injected into theirhttp://www.tourismportdouglas.com.au/typo3/alt_doc.php?returnUrl=db_list.php%3Fid%3D3098%26table%3Dtx_comments_comments%26pointer%3D2500&edit[tx_comments_comments][7602]=edit# blood streams. Whilst small as the doses may be, what is "fact" is that the build up of metals in the body over time leads to other diseases such as Alzheimers, Huntingtons and Parkinsons to name some. These diseases occur when certain metals cross the blood/brain barrier. If you dont believe me then check out Prana Biotechnology(ASX:PBT) & Dr Rudolph Tanzi's theories/trials on Alzheimers....he will win a Nobel Peace Prize one day. So for us the chances of our kids getting diptheria etc we see as very remote. What is higher is the chance of getting the above diseases later on in life or even getting autism, asperger syndrome or ADD. Doctors are too used to to treating everyday problems with drugs...herbal medicine has been around for a few more centuries, someone just commerciallised it, that's all.
Nadia , 12-01-12 16:40:
I think most of you have lost sight of the immediate question. Should parents have the right to choose? YES! Whichever choice they make is their business and they have their reasons for doing so. If you don’t think Australian’s should have the right to choose, THEN MOVE! Whether or not vaccination is effective is an OPINION and no one should have their right to an opinion taken away from them, especially in matters regarding our health.
Scott, you need to calm down! This is a debate, not an argument. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and if you can’t accept someone else’s perhaps you should refrain from commenting.
nikolas g, 12-01-12 16:32:
you offer me money, if i vaccinate my child
i will refuse
you cut off payments
i will go without them
you won't let my child in your schools,
i will home school
you will discriminate me
threaten me
persecute me?
it will make me stronger

will you then, insult me
beat me
arrest me?
will you kill me?
because you will have to kill me
to put that needle into my child
for i am his wall
the last wall!
that protects him from you.

and after i'm dead
only then, maybe,
you may see, that you are wrong.
for it is no victory
what you gain by force.

for all of you
who live in fear,
that fear which drives you
against your brothers, and sisters
and justifies in you
the spawning of hatred
the lust for persecution
and the perpetuating of evil, again. and again.

for you, who are lost
i will pray tonight.

for that sword that you use against me today
may be used against you by others one day.
Scott , 12-01-12 15:14:
Robyn, you didn't make an inform choice, you made an ill advised decision based on the misinformation propagated by the anti-vaxx lobby. In doing so you ignored all scientific evidence to the contrary, weakened the herd and as such put at risk the most vulnerable in our community who cannot be vaccinated.

But I do not blame you for this, I blame anti-vaxx advocates such as the AVN who prey on well meaning parents with misinformation and outright lies to satisfy their own agenda and fill their coffers.

You have the right to choose to vaccinate or not and I will fight for that right. The AVN have no right to willfully present lies as fact when it endangers lives. They must be stopped.
Nay , 12-01-12 14:18:
Vaccinations or anything else for that matter should not be made compulsory.
We dont ban obese people from eating macdonalds!
Smoking and drinking are still legal yet they affect others adversely.
People should be able to make their own decisions for their own health.
Robyn , 12-01-12 13:37:
The argument back and forth for and against immunization can go on for ever. But the bottom line is that for some families, living day in and day out with the effects of disability caused by immunization, there is no argument. I made a decision to not continue with 4 of my children's immunization programs and to not have my latter 2 children immunized at all. That decision was much more informed than the one to immunize I had made when I had my first babies. I did what I was told all good parents do. I immunized. But when forced to really look at the subject of immunization both from a medical and pro Vac point of view I found enough evidence and unanswered questions to make me very unvilling to continue with vacinations. I was making an informed choice. I should have the right to do that. If you choose to immunize your children why are you worried? Your child's immunization is supposed to protect them from VPD. It is my unimmunized child that should be at risk and I'm not at all worried about that. So if you choose to immunize... go for your life. I would encourage you to be informed. But if you choose to not immunize you should have the right to do so.
Teresa Ayto, 12-01-12 13:27:
I believe we as parents have the right to choose for our children, and make informed commonsense decisions for them, I personally as a parent who was never vaccinated as a child, feel strongly against vaccination have read much information for and against Including vaccination the hidden facts by Ian Sinclair which uses actual medical journals as its source of information amongst other things.
Now for me i cannot in any good conscience, willingly shove something into the system of my child without their consent that may end up killing them, or paralysing them, or much worse having them being totally mentally handicapped to the point they must be fed and wear nappies and never talk or walk or even be able to hold themselves up ever again, what right do i have to inflict that on my child, the risks are small you say , even a small risk is to much of a risk.
Conspiracy theorist you say, well how about people actually read the information thats out there, majority of it referenced and sourced from medical journals that shows the dangers,Please become totally educated on this stuff before giving an opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to express it but at least make it an educated non ignorant opinion, about the pros and cons not just something thats been drummed up in your mind overnight, people against vaccination are not conspiracy theorists, they are educated people who educated themselves by reading lots and i mean lots of information.
Scott , 12-01-12 12:28:
Robert, I believe you are mistaken in stating that the Japanese do not vaccinate until after the age of 2 years. Please see the linked resource.

http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/countryprofileresult.cfm?C=jpn
Scott , 12-01-12 12:03:
The AVN claim they exist to ensure parents have freedom of choice. I am not aware of any prominant community group or political party that advocates for compulsory vaccination. So why does the AVN really exist? There is a hint in Ms Dorey's post in which she wastes no time to direct you to her website. There you can you can purchse AVN membership and magazines as well as any number of anti-vaccine, AIDS denial, cancer-conspiracy, anti-medical establishment, pro-alternative therapy rubbish.

Note the wild claims and allegations about vaccines from the anti-vaxxers on this site. Note not one of them can provide any evidence to back their claims. Note that many of the same anti-vaxxers also state that vaccinations shouldn't be used as there is no evidence of their efficacy or safety (of which there is a multitude). Note that many of the same anti-vaxxers advocate naturopathy, homeopathy, chiropractic and all manner of hocus pocus for which there is no evidence. Note the hypocracy.

Luke Murray I will stop labelling people as a conspiracy theorist when they stop alleuding to conspiracies. A casual glance at this forum reveals multiple conspiracy theories, all of which are baseless. Dismissing well researched evidence as Big Pharma propoganda is conspiratorial.
Luke Murray, 12-01-12 09:10:
Labeling people Conspiracy theorists does nothing for the debate. Sticking to the facts makes for a clearer picture. Here is a list of ingredients - http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html Thimerosal is a brand name for mercury.
Archangel , 12-01-12 02:45:
I've seen written somewhere, "my child's future is my choice." If I'd had the freedom to speak out when I was a child, I would have told my parents, "no, it's not, it's mine." That being said, when I have a family, vaccination WILL BE mandatory, as it will be my responsibility as a parent to ensure that my children have as much opportunity to decide their own future as possible, without dying from a VPD in the process.

In any other situation, when parents endanger the lives of their children, either by directly abusing them, or by proxy in making irrational decisions against procedures, or treatments, or anything else that might save their life, a mandate of child protection can be enforced by a government agency against those parents.

So only a parent knows what's best for their child? Wrong, anyone is capable of making a misjudgement, even with their own children. It happens all the time. There is no special magical force that enables a mother or a father some divine knowledge of their child's welfare that nobody else can possible know - and it is arrogant to assume that "parent knows best" routine won't endanger somebody else's immunodeficient child at school. Mandatory vaccinations all round, because YOUR child is not the ONLY child in the world, and it's nobody else's fault, or problem, if you can't understand the benefits of vaccination, or if you've been led into some paranoid conspiracy theory or another.
Margaret Nowlan, 12-01-12 01:27:
I chose 34 years ago not to vaccinate my first child because I had doubts about the safety and effectiveness based on information from alternate health publications.
I had 3 children and took responsibility for their health based on good food choices plus the support of alternate remedies- Herbs, Chiropractic, Homeopathy and Kinesiology.
Now as parents they are choosing after investigation and support not to vaccinate and they, nor I, want to have to battle for that right.
The AVN is one of the areas of support they use, plus their years of experience with our alternate choices in health care which we gladly pay for.
The government knows smoking, drinking alcohol to excess, fast foods full of trans fats all harm our health, but still allow people a choice and pay millions to try to repair the damage when these people need free health care.
So instead of trying to make vaccinations mandatory, the health department should do a study on the health of unvaccinated families and I feel sure a study would reveal the majority are all in very good health.
Mindanoiha , 11-01-12 23:24:
Quoted from neurologist Russell Blaylock MD:
That vaccine-induced herd immunity is mostly myth can be proven quite simply. When I was in medical school, we were taught that all of the childhood vaccines lasted a lifetime.

This thinking existed for over 70 years. It was not until relatively recently that it was discovered that most of these vaccines lost their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given.

What this means is that at least half the population, that is the baby boomers, have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of these diseases for which they had been vaccinated very early in life.

In essence, at least 50% or more of the population was unprotected for decades.

If we listen to present-day wisdom, we are all at risk of resurgent massive epidemics should the vaccination rate fall below 95%.

Yet, we have all lived for at least 30 to 40 years with 50% or less of the population having vaccine protection.

That is, herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades and no resurgent epidemics have occurred.

Vaccine-induced herd immunity is a lie used to frighten doctors, public-health officials, other medical personnel, and the public into accepting vaccinations.
Leigh Campbell, 11-01-12 23:19:
If any couple is thinking of NOT vaccinating their kids then I have some considerations:
1. The child has to inherit a healthy immune system (IS) from both parents.
2. You need to be educated on what to give your kids when they get sick to support there immunity, eg look at homeopathics. Anti-biotics, panadol etc supress the ability of the IS to function at optimal levels.
3. Diet is highly important for your kids. Sugar intake greatly reduces immunity. Be very well researched and have resources avail.
If you dont meet all the above or are not willing to learn then dont bother, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Hope that helps.
PS My wife made me detox and give up beer, sugar (namely soft drink) & fried food for 3 months before we conceived our 1st, it was hell for a while but totally worth it in the end.
Linda Finch, 11-01-12 22:38:
How insulting to take such a decision away from someone who has done their best for more than 9 months to produce the most perfect baby! Who knows best?? Pharmaceutical companies are very good at playing on fears of the uninformed, or allowing only certain self-promoting material out there. Aside from the widespread genetic damage done to our immune systems in the western world since the introduction
of vaccinations, why do we have fertility problems that 3rd world non-immunised countries don't?? As a Naturopath I find the proof in front of me every day undeniable. Where is the public referendum on such enormous decisions?
Jason Ward, 11-01-12 22:38:
And same reasoning for "herd immunity". It is established that there is no scientific proof of a "herd immunity". It is guess work. Not based on scientific evidence, at all. Is it 95%, 83% 78 % 99%? Well, who knows, there are no studies to prove this theory. No scientific evidence at all that "herd immunity" is anything but crock.
Jason Ward, 11-01-12 22:35:
Carcinogenics in vaccines are in trace amounts.
But what is the level where a carcinogenic is accepted as being non-cancerous?
If this is unknown, and the cause of autism is unknown, then why do people persist in denying that dangerous chemicals and toxins cannot be a cause for cancer and autism? Seems to me to be very unreliable science, based on guess work. In the meantime, we keep vaccinating but are perplexed why cancer and autism rates keep increasing.
Trace amounts? And so many trace amounts, injected into a tiny new-born? Really? We just don't know the cause of our current cancer and autism explosion.
Go figure.
Agnes , 11-01-12 22:23:
I can not believe that so many people believe it's better not to vaccinate there children. the only reason your kids stay healthy is cause you are lucky and we decide to vaccine ours to protect ourselves and people like you!
it is not fair to choose not to vaccinate your kids cause you ARE putting our families at risk! Not everyone can be vaccinated, some babies are too young and can catch horrible disease before we can protect them!
all this talk is like saying:" i never used to wear a bike helmet when I was a child and I"m still alive!" or "My Grandpa used to smoke till he was 90 and he didn't get cancer!" YES CAUSE THERE WERE LUCKY!!!!!! and your children are lucky cause they live around our vaccinated kids! If your child would get polio I'm pretty sure you would cry out loud!
the side effects of vaccine are tiny compared to big life changes that diseases can bring!
Robert , 11-01-12 22:11:
I personally have no issues with vaccines as such but I do have an issue with vaccinating babies before the age of 2 years old. There is plenty of evidence out there to suggest that vaccinating your child at a later stage in their life (where their immune system and internal organs are more development) significantly reduces any adverse effects vaccines have on your child. I seen so many children suffer from allergies, inflammation, and infections but no one ever questions whether the vaccines played a role in this. The Japanese do not vaccinate their children until after the age of 2 and their child mortality rate is one of the lowest in the world. In contrast, vaccination is mandatory in the USA and child mortality is comparable to third world countries (references available on request). Also, I hope people realise that the immunity that vaccines give is not for life. Only natural immunity (ie, you catching the disease and fighting it off) gives you immunity for life. Most vaccine immunity lasts for 10 or so years before you need a booster shot. So if you are an adult now and you haven't had a booster since your vaccinations when you were a baby then the chances are you have no immunity to these diseases at all. So if herd immunity requires 95% of the population to be vaccinated but a majority of adults have no immunity then does that mean herd immunity is not working? If so, why isn't there huge outbreaks of these diseases in society? Either herd immunity is a hoax or our bodies are a lot more capable in fighting off disease than we think. Of course, no matter how strong your body is you need to feed it with the right foods and supplement where you are deficient. If you choose not to vaccinate your child but feed them crap then you are waiting for a disaster to happen.
michele johnson, 11-01-12 22:00:
Besides all the other arguments I just don't understand why people think it should be compulsory when no guarantee they work. My own personal experience with my family being fully vaccinated (with boosters) & supposedly then being fully covered against the whooping cough ,still got it ! So whats the point of taking risk when doesnt work?
Curly , 11-01-12 21:54:
Tha main issue here is not whether vaccinations are effective of not or whether the risks of having a vaccination outweigh the benefit to the community, the issue is that in a democracy absolutely nobody should be dictating what has to be injected into another persons body without their agreement. Full stop!
Sam , 11-01-12 21:29:
Now just incase any parent reads the poll and thinks "More people voted NO than YES... they must be right", do note that the Australian Vaccination Network themselves have sent out a plea to get their "Facebook Fans" to vote No to the survey which is of course not respective of the majority of the population who see common sense and choose to have their children vaccinated.
John Bundock, 11-01-12 21:10:
The National Library of Australia has digitised its newspaper collection up to 1954 and made it available free online. The death toll in Australia from infectious diseases before vaccination is recorded there. It makes frightening reading.
Polio was not on a sharp decline before vaccination. Deaths from polio were; owing to the invention of the iron lung that kept polio sufferers alive when their paralysis prevented them from breathing naturally. Some remained in iron lungs for the rest of their lives. Others were lucky to escape with only a withered limb. A healthy diet was no protection to Sydney's Aboriginal community in 1789 when smallpox broke out and killed half of them, nor did it protect them against death from measles and whooping cough. Many of us had grandparents and parents who suffered the loss of siblings due to what are now vaccine-preventable diseases; and some of us saw our own siblings badly affected. Those were in the days when most people had clean water an efficient sewage-disposal system. Vaccines were welcomed as they were seen to remove the fear of these diseases. Sadly, two generations have grown up not understanding what life (and death) was like before vaccines. Diseases are returning and, as has happened overseas, when many children have been maimed and killed; vaccination rates will rise again. Unless medically advised to the contrary, failure by parents to vaccinate amounts to child neglect.
Shot Info, 11-01-12 21:00:
The Australian Vaccination Network page on Wikipedia has a lot of information about the AVN.
faina dobrenko, 11-01-12 20:35:
Not everyone agrees with vaccines, or may be the vaccine schedule. The safety of vaccines is always in question. If you hear a story of a fatal reaction, you should be able to make a choice, not be forced.
Erwin Alber, 11-01-12 19:51:
"Parents have been urged to immunise their children despite calls from groups such as the Australian Vaccination Network who say parents should have the right to choose."

This subtitle seems illogical to me. Also, while the AVN supports parents' freedom of choice, Australians already have freedom of choice.

State Member for Cook Jason O'Brien says:

"The fact is vaccinations have saved millions of lives. Their invention was a miracle of scientific achievement."

This is a belief, not a fact. The truth is that vaccines have never prevented anything apart from health, sanity and common sense and that vaccination is in fact an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease prevention by means of junk science.
Natalia , 11-01-12 19:45:
I believe every person should be free to make up their own minds about what is right for them & their families in regards to vaccinating or not. It should never be made compulsory to vaccinate & I applaud the efforts of groups such as the AVN in standing up to make sure we have the right to make these decisions & that there is other information out there for us to read besides the biased information from big pharma.
Carolyn , 11-01-12 19:37:
p.s. I'm not advocating that vaccines be compulsory. I just object to misinformation and dangerous myths being spread as fact. I'm also against seeing children suffer from preventable illnesses.
Carolyn , 11-01-12 19:36:
I'd like to know who all these doctors who refuse vaccination are. That's another lobby myth. I'm a doctor and I don't know any who refuse boosters/vaccinations. We don't do it to protect ourselves, we do it to protect those for whom we care, and are more vulnerable than us. You accuse us of being sheep and of self-interest. Not guilty. We see the effects of vaccine-preventable diseases and I count myself lucky to be in a generation of doctors unlikely to see polio, diptheria, Hib meningitis and epiglottitis. We still have a long way to go though.
Also, it doesn't seem that these people ever get the concept of herd immunity. Think it's wilful denial of a very important community benefit. You are the ones who don't care about those around you. Kids and adults with cancer, immune deficiencies and very young infants. It's not that complicated.
greg , 11-01-12 19:24:
Vaccines as aligned to immunisation theory is a dismal failure. Every booster added to the schedule and every case in vaccinated individuals puts another nail in that insidious coffin. Herd immunity was originally postulated at around 66%. now we are at99.9% and climbing.
Stop wasting my time.
gp
Chelsea , 11-01-12 19:18:
What is wrong with parents making an informed decision, and then deciding whether or not vaccination is right for their children?

The government has no right to dictate what we should and should not do to our children.

Balanced information should be readily available to every parent so they can make an educated decision. Since vaccination rates have increased so have cases of autism, childhood disabilities, cancer rates, chronic illnesses, food allergies and whooping cough outbreaks.

Why is it that anyone who has done their own research, and has decided against vaccination, is automatically labelled a conspiracy theorist?

Our bodies have been designed with a wonderful immune system. A healthy lifestyle, diet and sensible sunlight exposure are the best things to boost your immunity, not a needle packed full of toxic chemicals, live strains of diseases and questionable ingredients which are not fully disclosed.
Lesley , 11-01-12 19:04:
It is quite disturbing that almost 50% of respondents believe in the suppression of choice. Regardless of whether or not I agree with an individual's viewpoint I support their right to personal autonomy and self-determination, particularly in health care. A society which denies such rights is far too terrifying to contemplate. That's one slippery slop upon which we should never set foot. It is extremely disturbing that this poll was even conceived. We should not contemplate the erosion of democracy.
Catherine , 11-01-12 18:57:
Vaccinations should not be mandatory - Australia would not be a democracy if they were. A couple of interesting points - I was vaccinated for chicken pox and I had a horrific case at 8 years old. No much faith in that vaccine! Also if mercury does not cause autism, why then have there only been 3 cases of autism in Denmark since they removed mercury from vaccines in 2001?? When the number here is dreadful - one child in every 138. Sorry, no faith in vaccines whatsoever. My family and I will remain vaccine free thank you.
Meryl Dorey, 11-01-12 18:33:
Those who say that there is no mercury in vaccines need to get themselves copies of the manufacturer's package inserts. And even then, you won't be fully informed because independent testing has shown that even vaccines which claim to be mercury (thiomeral - the mercury-based preservative linked with brain damagge, severe allergies and autism amongst other side effects) still have it in them. Mercury is still in the Hepatitis B, Flu, some meningitis and DPaT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus) vaccines amongst others. For those who would like to make an informed choice about vaccination (and really, shouldn't we all do that? We are supposed to be making educated decisions about our children's health!), I would like to direct you to the AVN's recent blog article, The 'Myth' of mercury -- http://avn.org.au/nocompulsoryvaccination/?p=1141. You may also want to have a read of the 'myth' of toxins in vaccines - http://avn.org.au/nocompulsoryvaccination/?p=1143.

I urge all parents who are wanting to make informed decisions to get copies of the manufacturer's package inserts for all vaccines that are recommended for your children, to read the list of ingredients, side effects and contraindications or reasons why the vaccine may not be appropriate for everyone. Ask lots of questions and remember that vaccines is not compulsory in Australia (and hopefully, never will be) so you have the right to make a free and informed choice. You won''t lose any government financial entitlements, your child can go to school, preschool or childcare whether they are fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated or not vaccinated at all.
Meryl Dorey
Australian Vaccination Network, Inc.
Tom Kennedy, 11-01-12 18:33:
It's interesting that the reporter says that "groups such as the AVN". Actually it is ONLY the extreamist AVN which is advocating the very risky public practice of not vaccinating. The more sensible amount us know that vaccination saves lives. It is really as simple as that.
James PD , 11-01-12 18:30:
Joel, Table salt is not Chlorine.

Table salt is Sodium Chloride. Nacl

Chlorine is just Cl.

Chloring is not an "Ingredient" but an element in a compound.

That is like comparing Oxygen (O2) to Ozone (O3). or Carbon dioxide (CO2) to Carbon Monoxide (CO)

One is essential to breathing, the other highly toxic.
Luke Murray, 11-01-12 18:26:
The Vaccination issue is similar to the great cancer con. There is truck loads of miss-information out there and truck loads of people indulge in their emotions making the issue even more distorted. Take responsibility and just look at both sides and make an informed choice. Mandatory anything is madness! There are plenty of doctors that are not sold on vaccination. Here is one on the following link http://www.youtube.com
/watch?NR=1&v=hhImYMMGwOc&
feature=endscreen
Oh and on the cancer issue watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBUGVkmmwbk Nothing is black and white, especially when there is money involved.
Scott , 11-01-12 18:00:
Does anyone else see here the pattern here? Read through the comments. The anti-vaxxer will always:

1) Claim there is no evidence vaccines work. In actual fact there is a multitude of evidence that they work. People like Ms Dorey have been presented with this evidence, read it and repeat "there is no evidence".

2) Claim that there is no evidence that vaccines are harmful. See Number 1. No vaccine is 100% safe however significant adverse reactions are very rare. There are hundreds of thousands of highly qualifeid scientists and doctors working around the world on vaccination research. If they haven't come up with any evidence by now they should be out of a job.

3) State that evidence doesn't count because it all comes from pharmaceutical companies. Pharm does the majority of the leg work on new vaccines no doubt, however governments, universities and hospitals worldwide also verify/retest results and administer ongoing surveillance.

4) Ask why we worry about unvaccinated if we are vaccinated. Because it protects the community and the vulnerable people in it, not just the individual.

5) Claim it all is a Big Pharma conspiracy. If you believe that you are beyond any rational argument.
Annette Willow, 11-01-12 17:53:
Nicole, there is NO mecury in Vaccinations,Formaldehyde occurs naturally in the body. We had excellent sewerage systems in Australia in the 1950's at the height of the Polio epidemic. You are right with one thing. The vaccine researchers and the Pharma companies did save the day!
Scott , 11-01-12 17:40:
Michelle, vaccination protects the most vulnerable in our community who are unable to be vaccinated and whom the ramifications of these diseases will be devastating. That is why we worry when other don't vaccinate.
nikolas g, 11-01-12 17:39:
Mandatory vaccination is against human rights.
Governments should work for the best interest of the people and not bend to the pressures of big pharmaceutical corporations.
The decision to vaccinate or not lays entirely on the individual.
Éverything else is scare tactics by money mongering corporate fascists.

By the way, if vaccinations are so effective, why should pro vaccine parents fear contamination of their children by non vaccinated kids? makes no sense to me...
Joel Finch, 11-01-12 17:39:
Has anyone ever investigated the ingredients used in common table salt? Chlorine? That's a toxic gas used in World War I!
Scott , 11-01-12 17:37:
Chris, while comparing anecodotes - my family is fully immunised and we are all the picture of health. If your family has not caught vaccine preventable diseases it is because they are protected by the rest of the community, not because of your diet.

If we are talking about following the money, why is it that every anti-vaxx website you go to wants to sell you something? Do anti-vaxxers have some sort of financial reward for spreading their rhetoric? I'm looking at you AVN. Is it a conspiracy?
The Newsport+Editor , 11-01-12 17:30:
Ed here again. Just a reminder to keep your comments civil. Abusive, sarcastic, or generally insulting remarks will not be approved. Thanks.
michele johnson, 11-01-12 17:28:
Both my husband & daughter were fully vaccinated & yes with the boosters & both caught whooping cough . My husband was so bad he kept passing out from the cough ..Mandatory vaccination is wrong .. everyoen should choose for their body & their family. If people are so sure that the vaccines work why worry if others dont have them? If they work so well u should be safe right?? think about it !!!Educate yourself & not from the literature from the suppliers who want u to buy more
Scott , 11-01-12 17:22:
The usual anti-vaxx cry of "If you're child is vaccinated what do you care if mine isn't" demonstrates how little they understand the basic premise of vaccination.

1) Not all children (or adults) can be vaccinated. Some have cancer, some are on immunosuppresants, some have congenital immunodeficiencies, some have contraindications and/or allergies to vaccines.

2) Vaccines are at best 95% effective. That means 5 out 100 vaccinated people can still catch the disease.

We immunise to reduce disease vectors in our community. It is a social responsibility.
Chris , 11-01-12 17:08:
Vaccination is not the most effective health strategy. Good nutrition & clean hygenic conditions are. I know too many people whose kids, once well, now have horrible diseases following the jabs. Why is it that the CEO's of major drug manufacturers will not drink a concoction of what they force on babies, even though offered $250,000!!
There has not been effective safety studies & there have been too many covered up claims by parents of damaged kids. I, my kids & grandkids are proof of health without drugs. Why r parents afraid of the likes of us if their kids are immunised. Aren't they protected?? Funny how when there is an outbreak people are recommended to get more doses to protect them? Interesting that a large % of medical staff refuse it as they have seen the results. I strongly advise you do a lot more research from other than the standard medical advertorials and you will realise there is a very large conspiracy. It's all about money, profits, control etc, not the welfare of others
Annette Willow, 11-01-12 17:07:
The Anti-vax mob are a very interesting bunch. I have heard a talk recently from a Meryl Dorey who was speaking at Woodford. She was speaking after a Prof of Immunology. The Prof was clear with evidence based medicine, after many years of working in the field of vaccination and a PhD.
Ms Dorey from the AVN, after a HCCC warning against her for misleading information about vaccination... How the two of them ended up together on the same stage made my eyes role.
Tara Meyers, 11-01-12 17:04:
All children are not born with a clean slate of heatlh, due to many factors, so what works for one child doesn't mean it is suitable for another. For this reason it should be at the parents discretion what they feel is best for their child. After thorough research I chose not to vaccinate my child and haven't looked back. People need to stop attacking those who have chosen NOT to immunise because you don't know their reasons and if you are worried that an unvaccinated child is carrying diseases then it's not your concern because your child has been vaccinated.
Fiona Owens, 11-01-12 16:51:
We did the right thing by getting our children and ourselves vaccinated so that lowers disease vectors, but with the rise of you anti vaccers we shall go back to the days of 80% child mortality of children under the age of 5 due to preventable disease. And who will be Complaining the loudest - you anti vaccers!!!!!
Carolyn , 11-01-12 16:50:
I would like to see evidence of a measles outbreak in a 100% vaccinated community. Usually in Australia outbreaks are in the areas of notorious poorly immunised areas. Millions of children die of measles every year and even healthy children often become very unwell and miserable. Look up the complication rates as they are much higher than those of vaccination. And yes, we do have studies into vaccination side effects and rates. You can choose to believe the science or not. I for one would love it if the world's children became healthy enough to never need my services again. Not going to happen in my lifetime and not because us doctors and "big pharma" are sabotaging people's health.
The Newsport Editor , 11-01-12 16:45:
Hi All
Thanks for participating so passionately on this discussion. We do ask, however, that you refrain from personal attacks on other commentators. We can get our point across and be civil at the same time.
Thanks
Ed.
Helen , 11-01-12 16:39:
My son was vaccinated against measles but he still got measles, go figure.
Scott , 11-01-12 16:36:
For the record - while I obviously advocate that all children able to be vaccinated should be, I do not believe it should be compulsory. My vote in your poll idicated as such.
Scott , 11-01-12 16:35:
I see the AVN have arrived lead no less than by Jane Doe herself.

Ms Dorey, there is substantial evidence that vaccines are effective, there is substantial evidence that vaccines are safe. This evidence is obtained from both epidemiological studies and controlled trials. These have been shown to you time and time again yet you persist with these untruths.
Ernie , 11-01-12 16:34:
Let's go back to the good old days when people got crook/died from tetnus, polio, measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, etc. It is more natural that way. Maybe we should get rid of that nasty penicillin too. Us old fellas remember how it was, these people are fooling themselves and harming their kids. Vaccination Saves Lives.
Han Durren, 11-01-12 16:33:
Actually there is overwhelming evidence that vaccines are safe and effective. To argue otherwise is simply nonsense. AVN really ought to be stopped.
Steve Payne, 11-01-12 16:24:
I recently spent 15 gloriuos weeks in your lovely town. Immunisation saves lives, 'healthy' immune systems DO NOT PROTECT anyone from measles, whooping cough, diptheria or any other killer disease. If you choose not to vaccinate, you are selfishly putting others at risk and should be banned from going places where there are small children. Kinder anyone? I have relatives who had whooping cough and the 18month old who got it almost did not survive. There is no successful treatment for pertussis, but there is an effective vaccine. Go get one before you make your family or friends ill.
Tahnia , 11-01-12 16:14:
Every parent should have the right to decide what is injected into their child. After a severe reaction to vaccinations I truly believe my 2nd child could have died if I continued vaccinating him. If I had no choice the government could have killed him. I did not investigate what is in vaccinations until he reacted and after finding out more info I would never again vaccinate a child. My 3rd child has a great immune system with no vaccs - one cold in 5 yrs and NO other illnesses His immune system has had a chance to work as it should without the influx of a huge amount of chemicals. We need an immunisation program for the majority but it should not be mandatory as it is not the only way to keep children healthy and free of disease.
Jane Doe, 11-01-12 16:00:
Everybody seems to think that vaccination is a effective public health strategy. Where is the evidence? Looking at it from a scientific perspective, there is absolutely NO proof that vaccinations are safe as a safety study has NEVER been conducted. There is NO evidence that vaccines are responsible for disease decline: this is a very complicated analysis as diagnostic criteria for diseases changed, making it almost impossible to actually track incidence of a disease. There is also no evidence that vaccines work: there are measles outbreaks in 100% vaccinated communities, which would be impossible if the vaccines did their job and prevented the disease, wouldn't it? Immunologically the immunoglobulins that are activated with a vaccine are different to those that are activated with natural infection, leaving the patient with protection that is short-term at best. If we look at it from this perspective, there is no debate. The science tells us what the right answer is.
Michael Peter, 11-01-12 15:54:
Who would deny their child a vaccination against a horrible and fatal disease like meningitis?
Erin Phillips, 11-01-12 15:53:
What a stupid poll, any type of medicine etc should always be given AT THE PARENTS REQUEST and NOT forced onto poor innocent children and babies!!! Mandatory vaccines is just EVIL
Scott , 11-01-12 15:49:
Formaldehyde is naturally occuring in the body and toxic in high doses - but so are oxygen and water. The dose in a vaccine is far less than the toxic dose and in fact less than the body produces on a daily basis. The same can be said about aluminium. Mercury is only present in the fluvax. The amount is smaller than you get from a can of Tuna. Maybe we should be looking at Tuna as a cause of autism?
Nicole , 11-01-12 15:00:
Has anyone ever investigated the ingredients used in vaccines? Mercury? Aluminum? Phemaldehyde?

Polio was already on a sharp decline due to better hygiene practices and better sewerage systems before the pharmaceutical company swooped in and 'saved the day'.

The human body has an amazing immune system. It should be allowed to develop naturally. When I was a kid we used to have measle parties. Someone in town would get it so we would all go to their house and catch it. 4 days at home on the couch and there's your vaccine!

I fully respect parents who choose to vaccinate their kids but it should not be forced on everyone. There are plenty of arguments for and against vaccines and not enough proof that they are 100% safe.
Alie Thompson, 11-01-12 14:44:
High vaccination rates protects those in the community who are either too young to be fully vaccinated (babies) and those who are immuno-suppressed (cancer and transplant patients). This is an public health measure which is too important to be avoided by those who are misinformed about the relatively miniscule risks of the vaccination. Organisations which take it upon themselves to spread misinformation about false risks to children must be prevented from peddling lies.
Craig , 11-01-12 14:43:
I can't believe James PD was so quick to confirm the conspiracy! This is what you are dealing with people, they think the drug companies are using mind control drugs to pacify the population.
Sam , 11-01-12 14:13:
There are clearly two sides to the argument... HOWEVER

There is one side which actually protects the people of Australia and the world from deadly diseases and as the article states, eradicated diseases such as Polio and Smallpox which used to run rampant throughout society...

and the other which tries to promote the return of deadly diseases through some misguided view that Big Pharma is evil. Therefore, putting those who do not vaccinate at risk, but even worse - the children of that person and those who rely on herd immunity (Immunodeficient, too young etc).

Health or Disease... which would you choose? Think about it...
James PD , 11-01-12 14:09:
Many vaccinations are not necessary and infact harmful. The medical "professionals" will urge you to vaccinate for reasons they have been trained in arguing for. The medial professionals are themselves sheep in a bigger game controlled and manipulated by the pharmaceutical comanies. Do you really think flouride is good for your teeth? lol No, it is a mind control agent used in WW2 used to prevent a prison population resisting authority. So why would a health professional want to give you something harmful in the long term? Well, if everyone was healthy, they would work themselves out a job and the multibillion $ pharmceutical biz would crumble. The responses that follow will clearly identify who are the sheep in this world and who are capable of observing the world as it is.
Brendon Kelaher, 11-01-12 14:00:
Improving vaccines and immunisation coverage assists to prolong life and help create a better future. Immunisation initiatives are a simple, timely, effective and affordable way to improve population health. Immunisation also supports and delivers positive outcomes for Indigenous mothers, infants, youth, and the elderly.
Brendon Kelaher, 11-01-12 13:39:
Improving vaccines and immunisation coverage assists to prolong life and help create a better future. Immunisation initiatives are a simple, timely, effective and affordable way to improve population health. Immunisation also supports and delivers positive outcomes for mothers, infants, youth, and the elderly.
Craig , 11-01-12 13:37:
Need to remember with groups like the Australian Vaccination Network is that they are basically conspiracy theorists. They basically believe in some kind of new world order run by drug companies who are paying off politicians, doctors and scientists in order to drug the population. It's all pretty crazy stuff.
SIan Morton, 11-01-12 12:53:
Vaccination is one of the most effective public health strategies and it is fortunate that the vast majority of parents understand and accept the importance of immunising their children. There will always be a small group of people who either cannot or choose not to vaccinate. While these numbers remain small I do not believe vaccination needs to be mandatory, however if vaccination levels across the population fall, compromising herd immunity, my position will change.

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